I'm sure you guys (all 5 of you) are on tenterhooks waiting for my update on last night's conversation? Right? Right? <crickets>
It was overall a productive conversation. It was not, by any stretch, pleasant or easy or comforting.
Overall he said he was "very surprised" by some of my feelings. He stated he had no idea I felt that way, and that maybe he just wasn't paying attention or maybe taking me for granted. Despite my best attempts to underscore that my comments were about my feelings and not negative comments about him, he called them "criticisms". And he got angry as we talked about it in more detail. His voice raised, pupils dilated, he looked agitated and upset. When I tried to explain that I was not criticizing him, he said that was how he felt, and I was invalidating his feelings, and how is that different from what I was telling him, because he could easily tell me that what I felt wasn't true.
Sigh. I reiterated that I was not invalidating him---I get that it feels like criticism when someone is telling you that you are not making them feel loved--- but I was just trying to reassure him that I didn't think our issues were all his fault or due to personal failings on his part, but more of a mutual problem caused by a failure to communicate our needs to each other.
He said he took the love language quiz, and got similar answers to me (high on physical touch and words of affirmation). We had the usual back and forth about this "but I DO hold your hand, YOU never reciprocate, yes I do, YOU don't ever hug me" and decided we both could do better in this realm. Again he tried to blame everything on "the kids"---no, I'm not buying it. Maybe you are having difficulty handling all the current responsibilities but its not the fault of "the kids", its on you to find coping mechanisms.
He stated that my ability to organize things and stay on schedule was valuable to the household and to him. that was in response to me wanting words of affirmation or acknowledgement about any positive attributes I had. Literally that was all he could think of. And then "but I love and appreciate everything about you". And then "but how do I know what you're good at or what talents you have?". I don't even...how do you respond to that?
I mentioned setting a time to "check in" every so often so things don't build up again. He said that "check in" reminded him of stupid work lingo and so we never resolved that, but I think I'll put it on my calendar to send him monthly emails about how things are going. I told him to also let me know how he felt things are going, and what was bothering him or what he needed from me, and he said "oh I don't need anything important. and what's bothering me is never important". I tried to explain to him that saying things like that was not a favor to me, and actually 1) made me even more reluctant to share my own needs and 2) deprived me of the satisfaction of making change/doing something that would make him happy. Not sure he got it, but maybe?
We talked about scheduling time to hang out during the week. He said he hated scheduling things, and couldn't we just see how we felt? And I mentioned that, well, we've been doing that for years and what we "feel" is that we need to work or do chores or watch Netflix and go to bed, so if we don't schedule time to talk and connect its not going to happen spontaneously at this stage in life. He reluctantly agreed.
I don't know. i think I accomplished step 1---figuring out the problem and step 2---communicating it to him, but I'm not sure what step 3 and 4 and on actually entail. And I don't know what's going to happen in the future. He definitely seems invested in trying to change things, but am I wrong to be bothered by the fact that he actually thought everything was fine the way it was until I brought it up? Or by the fact that this was actually NOT the first time we've discussed these exact same issues---we have discussed them in various ways at least 4-5 other times over the past 3 years?
Well, I'm glad the talk is behind you, and hopefully he's thinking about it today. Who knows what will come out of marinating on your words for bit?
ReplyDeleteUm... for this: "but how do I know what you're good at or what talents you have?". Uh, how about what do I do that you can't live without? The things that make your life better? Like X, Y, and Z?
It is too easy to have the whole night filled with tasks if you don't set aside that time. Maybe you need to fill his calender with things like "Field Trip to Our Sofa." :-)
Yes, that was when he replied "organizing and scheduling". Which, sure, I AM good at that, but when your sole contribution can be replaced by actually using the google cal app, it isn't very heartening to hear.
DeleteThe sad thing was, Mel, that we DID put it on his calendar for a while a couple of years ago. I'd see his phone light up "hang out with Ana" while he watched a movie or we folded laundry. He would glance at it and ignore it and I didn't feel like being a nag about it. I actually go on his computer and deleted it because it made me feel worse that he actually SAW IT and ignored it than to imagine he just forgot.
Hug to you! Well you can't solve anything without identifying and communicating the problem so steps 1 & 2 are pretty critical. Can your therapist or a friend help you see what steps 3... should be. When you chec-in in a week or two what would you like to see/hear/have happened?
ReplyDeleteI am SUPER sensitive to criticism. Anytime I hear my spouse complaining about anything, I interpret it as a direct criticism about me even when it's not remotely. So I can see how your SO would interpret it this way. For me, having time to process really helps, so hard conversations via email would be good for me. If your husband is like me, maybe give him a couple days to process and get into problem solving mode. You can revisit and see if his ideas have changed.
Good luck! Marriage is hard especially with little kids, but yes you should feel like your needs are being met. Our challenge right now is retaining romantic connection rather than just being roommates with shared responsibilities...
Thanks for your perspective. It is SO HARD for me to see his side of this, and I'm trying. It helps to have it explained by someone else who feels similarly, since I don't see it that way. If he told me I don't hug him enough or tell him I appreciate him enough I think I'd feel like "aww. sure I'll get right on that" (now whether or not it happens is a different thing, but it wouldn't make me defensive or angry to hear it).
Delete"Retaining romantic connection rather than just being roommates with shared responsiblities"---YES. This is exactly it. Except for its sort of a one-sided challenge. Only I seem to feel (or at least express) that the "roommates" situation is not ideal.
Sounds like a difficult conversation. I'm sure you were more clear with him than you can be with us (or maybe I just didn't read carefully enough) but I'm not understanding what the underlying issue is. That you feel unappreciated?
ReplyDeleteI'm not being clear here, you are correct. And I plan to keep it vague. Sorry! Just trying to illustrate hopefully the communication breakdowns we are having without getting into the nitty gritty of things that aren't fully mine to tell.
DeleteReally, I'm not asking for details. Just trying to say that hopefully you made it clear to him. Because this kind of sounds like conversations I've had with my spouse where it's clear to me that he's upset about something, but I have no idea what he wants me to day or do.
ReplyDeletegot it. Yes, I was as clear as I could be. I tried really hard to be direct, which is one of the reasons I did it in writing. Of course, I can't really put words in his mouth for what I want to hear from him, but I tried to be specific about the KINDS OF THINGS that I was getting at it (by telling HIM the things I appreciate about HIM)
DeleteAnd whatever I say turns out to be the wrong answer.
ReplyDelete:/
ReplyDeleteAnd another *hug*.
I know for myself, if I were asked during an argument or stressful conversation to name positive things about my spouse, I'd find it really hard to think of anything. So his inability to come up with much is probably due to the situation (I'm guessing he would think of a lot more things he appreciates about you while in a good mood!).
ReplyDeleteI do find that once difficult conversations start de-railing into the anger/stress category, some forced connection helps. So even if it's the last thing I'm currently feeling, I'll interject the conversation to tell him I love him, and go in for a hug or some physical touch. Since you're both responsive to touch, it might help diffuse some of the negative emotions in the moment (fake it til you make it?). Although it sounds like maybe he's somewhat chronically stressed/on-edge, making it really hard for you to find any good moment to have these conversations. I'm a big fan of email. Maybe alternating the "issues" emails with some where you just say really nice things about what you love and appreciate about him, and how you're looking forward to snuggling on the sofa with him that evening (or whatever) will it help him get to a place where he's letting his defenses down enough to actually listen to and process what you're saying? And the strategic snuggle emails are a gentle reminder that you want to check-in that evening, without it feeling scheduled (even if you actually do schedule it for yourself, because scheduling is amazing!)
Really good ideas, thanks! The reaching out during an argument sounds like it could help, though SO HARD TO DO because I get really closed off when I'm upset (arms crossed, turned away). I think it would help. And the strategic email sending could work, too. Increase in positive interactions.
DeleteIn terms of him trying to think of good things about me---I gave him 48 HOURS to do this, and he was still scratching his head! Granted, he may have been stressed/in a bad mood the whole time, but really? I'm sure in 48 hours you could think of SOME good qualities?!
YAY for scheduling. My life doesn't work without scheduling every damn thing, seriously.
Oh Ana, this sounds so difficult. I have nothing useful to add, but sending you a virtual hug. I hope things get better.
ReplyDeletethanks!
DeleteI didn't comment on your earlier post because I kind of felt like I'd end up writing a whole post myself. But let's just say I've been in this same situation SO many times. Feeling like I'm spelling it all out as clearly as I can, and we must be speaking completely different languages. Feeling like we have a business relationship. K cannot ever name one thing he likes about me, not if his life depended on it.
ReplyDeleteHonesty, for us I feel like things just go in cycles. Right now we're getting along well and feeling close. I'm not sure what, if anything, we've done differently. But I can totally relate to how you're feeling, and I hope there is some positive change.
For you guys, you really MAY be speaking different languages, coming from different cultural constructs about relationships and marriage. That sounds so hard, because its hard enough for us (though even though we both grew up in America, he clearly has a very different set of expectations for what constitutes a long term marriage relationship than I do)
DeleteI think a big advantage for us is that we knew this going into it. Granted, it's still harder than we expected, but I think that's true for most people. I just remember seeing so many of my friends getting engaged/married and thinking they'd already worked through al the big questions and were in agreement. I can't imagine that worked out too well. At least we always knew it wouldnt work that way! I also think being able to make things work when we're so different is something we're both proud of, and that helps. But we do seem to have a lot more conflict than many couples I know.
DeleteI can understand your husband's defensive reaction, in a way- you've been thinking about this stuff for some time, but if he was truly unaware of your feelings, this is all brand new to him, and he hasn't had time to process it. Give him a couple of days, and I have a feeling he'll come around. Hang in there. It's a start. Hugs!
ReplyDeletethanks for the perspective & encouragement!
DeleteWhen my husband and I have this kind of conversation he also tells me that he does hug me and I don't notice, or he does do some other thing I've asked him to do and I'm too distracted to appreciate it. At one point he said he wants to point out to me when he's doing these things, because he thinks otherwise I won't notice, but he thinks that is a jerk move, but I told him, YES! TELL ME WHEN YOU'RE DOING IT! THAT WOULD BE SO HELPFUL! But he won't do it, which really pisses me off because I do think it would help me appreciate it more and him realize he doesn't actually do it as much as he thinks he does.
ReplyDeleteWe've talked a lot about how a quick peck on the cheek when he gets home is not what I'm talking about when I say I need physical touch and I try hard to say out loud when a longer embrace fills me up (and to help him see how it's different than the quick peck on the cheek). He still thinks I should initiate these moments, since *I* am the one who needs them, and he doesn't understand why it feels less meaningful to me that he can't make the effort to do it himself.
At the same time, what he *needs* from me is to watch a movie I'm not interested in with me not ever looking at my phone or folding laundry or even making a comment about it, which feels impossible to me and I think is some bullshit that it has to happen in such a restrictive way, so maybe I'm being the both for asking him to do something he just can't understand when I'm annoyed that he's asking me to do something that feels impossible to me.
If my husband saw a "hang out with wife" alert and ignored it because he was watching a movie I would lose my fucking shit. I'm so, so sorry. Reading that made me really, really sad. Did you bring that up in the hard conversation? What did he say to that? I feel like concrete examples like that can be really powerful. He has to see how hurtful that is, right?!
Yup. all of this. Also, he is also telling ME that I don't hug him, hold his hand, etc... SO last night when we were watching TV I held his hand, tried to get closer and he just...sat there. Didn't do anything. Sigh. I think actually saying things out loud makes sense! But then it sounds sort of defensive, too, like "see, here I am holding your hand! SEE!" I don't know the answer, obviously!
DeleteAna, based on this comment and what you wrote above, that the husband seems to want you to be roommates, he actually sounds like he may be going on through whatever I am going through. Basically, what I want from my husband is to not need anything from me right now because I am stretched so thin that I have nothing to give, and any needs he has are really a burden. I know this sounds awful, but essentially all I want to be is left alone. I will do my share of the kid duty and chores, and I sure as hell work a lot, so if he really wanted to know what I needed the answer would be to do me a favor and not ask anything of me right now; I don't want romance, I don't want sex, I don't want to take care of him emotionally, I just want him to leave me alone and not be yet another person who needs stuff from me. The thing is I feel depleted and as if everyone and everything just keep taking things from me, demanding, expecting. Like vampires. I can't communicate any of this explicitly, because it would be hurtful to him, but if I could, this is what I would say that I need from him -- to not be yet another person who needs taking care of.
DeleteI am not saying your DH is like me, but perhaps there's something to it. He might be really stretched very thin.
Oh gee, I can really get what Scooby Doo is saying here.
DeleteIt makes me wonder if there are structural things that you guys can do as a family unit to decrease overall stress-levels. DH and I tend to take turns being over-burdened but we have that luxury from somewhat flexible work and prioritizing being able to throw money at problems.
Once both of your kids are out of daycare, you should have lower overall expenses... would it be worth saving a little less now and making up for it later, etc.? *Are* there places that throwing money at problems would decrease general stress levels? I know you think hard about these issues already, but maybe there are some places that can be re-optimized based on current circumstances?
(Again, I don't know your whole financial situation, just bits and pieces. And this is exactly the opposite suggestion I would give not a wasted word because my sense is that you have a pretty good emergency fund, low debt, etc. and are on track. But I really don't know for sure!)
Also-- these are just hypothetical questions for thinking-- you do not need to answer them!