Instead of writing long-ass replies to your comments on my last post, I decided to devote a whole post to addressing 2 separate lines of thought. Oh, and for an update, I think things are starting to sink in for him---the past few days have shown a real change for the better in our relationship and I am even more hopeful!
First, I'm sure reading these posts, some of you were wondering why the hell I would marry a guy who I couldn't communicate with and didn't seem to respect my needs. I actually asked myself the same question last week, which led to a little trip down memory lane. And thankfully I realized that I didn't just make a desperate decision to avoid being alone for the rest of my life. We actually had a really great relationship! We had tons of fun together, lots of laughing, working together, trying new things. And the one memory that stood out---the time I realized that this was a guy I could imagine being with for the long haul---related to how supportive, sweet, and steady he was when I was having a tough time with something. Instead of getting defensive and angry at me for crying, or trying to "fix" the problem and getting annoyed when I didn't respond to that and me having to ASK HIM to hug me...he gently brushed my tears, hugged me, and was just THERE for a while before reiterating how he knew I'd figure it out because I was awesome (paraphrasing, obviously, but the gist of it) and to let him know if he could help but if not he was here for me.
SO YEAH. Things have changed. As to why, I don't really know, probably a combination of things that he did and I did and that just HAPPENED to us. Its the age old "growing apart" story, the "ugly relationship creep" that sneaks in when you are dealing with growing your career and running a home and creating and nurturing new life all the while dealing with family issues, trying to make and keep friendships, and work on your own mental & physical health.
Scooby-doo had a great comment on my last post: "he actually sounds like he may be
going on through whatever I am going through. Basically, what I want
from my husband is to not need anything from me right now because I am
stretched so thin that I have nothing to give, and any needs he has are
really a burden. I know this sounds awful, but essentially all I want to
be is left alone. I will do my share of the kid duty and chores, and I
sure as hell work a lot, so if he really wanted to know what I needed
the answer would be to do me a favor and not ask anything of me right
now; I don't want romance, I don't want sex, I don't want to take care
of him emotionally, I just want him to leave me alone and not be yet
another person who needs stuff from me. The thing is I feel depleted and
as if everyone and everything just keep taking things from me,
demanding, expecting. Like vampires. I can't communicate any of this
explicitly, because it would be hurtful to him, but if I could, this is
what I would say that I need from him -- to not be yet another person
who needs taking care of."
And YES. I know this feeling. I've HAD this feeling. This was basically the entirety of my pregnancy with L and his newborn period. We had a toddler and I was exhausted and sick during the pregnancy, trying to transition into a faculty position, working on major grants and my masters, and all sorts of shit and then we had a toddler and a newborn and we were really really stretched thin for a long time. Sleep deprivation was a HUGE culprit here---honestly all I wanted was sleep. Anything between me and sleep was a hated burden. I didn't even think about G or his feelings or our relationship other than making sure he were splitting things as equitably as possible (with the caveat that my gestating and feeding a human made up for about 50% of chores and toddler childcare). The pregnancy/pumping times I really did feel exhausted, and if he had asked for ANYTHING from me, I'm not sure I would've had it to give.
I'm sure he was feeling this way as well. But things have changed a LOT in the past 2-3 years. The gestating/nursing days are over, as are diapers and night wakings (FINALLY!). Our jobs are full-time but both are flexible, we rarely work more than 40-45 hours a week. He drops off and picks up L from daycare that is 2 blocks from his work. I take B to school and pick him up and walk the dog. If one of us has an evening activity we get a dog walker. We have a house cleaner come every other week. The only kid activity is swimming---both back to back on Saturday morning, 10 minute walk from our house. He doesn't travel for work, I travel 2-3 times, 2 nights max each time. We don't entertain much, or plan elaborate kid parties or holiday traditions. We are home most evenings, eat dinner, take turns either cleaning kitchen or getting kids to bed and by 8:30 we are "free". Most weekends are free-form, too. We don't schedule tons of things, we spend loads of time at the park or playing Legos.
If he still feels "stretched too thin", honestly, its of his own making. He does choose to do things the hard way. He wants to DYI things, initially saying he'd enjoy it, but then complaining because its tiring and he's "working all the time". He makes the kids homemade pancakes every weekend, and home cooked breakfasts for himself and kids even on weekdays (they like their eggs & oatmeal) which involves dishes/mess. I eat cheese sticks and nuts, usually at my desk. He has very high standards for chores---much higher than mine, and things take a LOT longer for him to do. When I fold the kids' clothes, I turn them right side out and then put them (unfolded) in piles for them to shove into the correct bins. He FOLDS THEM. He is always sweeping up leaves and the backyard and vacuuming dog hair from the rugs---I don't notice those things. He picks up the kids toys at the end of the day---something I realized early on was futile and a terrible use of my energy. I gave him over 3 hours on his own Saturday and he spent it doing chores.
The other part is attitude. I also had 3 hours on Sunday and spent it doing chores, but I realized that it was my choice to get things done so the rest of the week would be easier (and there would be less for HIM to do in the evening when he'd be tired from a solo adventure with the boys). I couldn't complain that "all I did was work" because I didn't HAVE TO do those things. I try really hard to not get down about chores---to recognize that a lot of "have tos" are actually "choose tos" and we need to own those choices (and also re-examine them from time to time to figure out if we want to change them). We choose to have home cooked food for most meals for health & financial reasons. We chose to have a dog and so we have to walk her and feed her (and keep up with the dog hair). Etc...
Of the two of us, he's also the one more prone to "throwing money at things" to make day to day life easier, and I'm trying to be OK with that. If he needs to get a cab home from work (its a 2 mile walk/bus ride) or get take out from time to time, to keep his sanity, then its worth it to save a little less during this "season" of our lives.
Also he doesn't get enough sleep---and that is definitely a choice. No one is forcing him to mess around on the internet or watch movies after the kids go to bed.
Bottom line, I think this is a phase in our lives when things are as easy as they are ever going to be for the forseeable future. Nothing bad is happening (and bad things can and will happen, such is life) nor are there any major upheavals (moves, new jobs, babies, etc...). We have pretty limited obligations and what I consider a relatively simple life. If we are going to have a strong marriage THIS is the time to work on it, because things can change in an instant, which is why I'm bringing this up and pushing for it. I want a strong foundation so that when things do shake up our lives, we are ready for it.
Does he realize all these things about his time use and lack of sleep? Does he want to change them? Does he just need to know that you're there for him?
ReplyDeleteOTOH, I can see doing all those chores that he does and wanting to be appreciated for doing them, even if I've made different choices myself. And I'm definitely bad about hitting reload on the internet after a tough day when I need some alone time even though I'd be so much happier reading a book in bed.
Also he sounds like one of those women (on the internet) who needs a very regular house-cleaner. I don't get those women *at all*, but their need seems to be real, so perhaps his is too. Or maybe he's trying to help out.
Your relationship is not my relationship, but if it were my husband in this situation, I'd open up a conversation saying I feel like he's been stressed lately and maybe not getting enough sleep and does he think that's the case, and if so, what changes can we make to do something about that. We've definitely had those kinds of conversations before for both of us.
we've had those conversations a LOT. Its sloooowwwwlllyyy sinking in... He is like the martyr-type women on the internet who are scrubbing the floors every night because they feel it "needs to be done", but I don't know how to make him not feel that way. He didn't grow up that way, he says sometimes that cleaning is "therapeutic" for him, and I get that some people feel that way even if I don't (drinking wine and watching Gilmore Girls is therapeutic for ME).
DeleteScooby-doo's comment was so on point, and totally got me thinking. Personally, I feel like I do ok at dealing with crises - when stuff gets really stressful for a while, I usually manage to step up and get everything done, and the adrenaline keeps me going and I go into crisis-management-robot mode. BUT, I always end up with a "hangover" effect once things calm down. So instead of enjoying the relative calm and ease of my life, I fall into a rut and become horribly unproductive and unmotivated. I don't know if it makes any physiological sense, but almost feels like a healing/balancing phase (but is not very pleasant at the time because I feel terrible about my lack of productivity). The length of the rut is probably proportional to the length of the crisis period (certainly has lasted months in my case, and I'm sure could be longer). So now I'm wondering if G is in that hangover rut? So even though there's no logical reason for him to be stressed right now, he might still be recovering from the super-stressful baby years? I don't have a good way to fix it, except for adding back in some fun things to break the rut-routine, and find something that actually gets me excited again (whether that's at work, or a hobby or something). And in my case adding a little stress back into my life often helps because it gives me a reality check (although that's usually work-specific; nothing like a hard deadline to induce panic productivity).
ReplyDeleteI actually do get that "hangover" feeling after a big deadline or something like that---but its pretty focused on work. I sort of think that he just isn't very self-reflective (or reflective at all) and hasn't really realized that the giant rock has been lifted off our shoulders and is still feeling the burden, if that makes sense? He still is in "life is crazy, we are just trying to survive" mode and I've moved on from that years ago, maybe because talking about it, writing about it, and thinking about it led me to realize how things have changed.
DeleteRobert Boice (psychologist) has a research line on the binge-purge method of productivity. (It's normal but not actually as productive as doing things slow and steady.)
DeleteMaybe DH needs to set up a gratitude journal! Or spend more time on mommy blogs(!) (This is somewhat in jest...)
Oh lord I should get off the internet because I am in one of those binge deadline coming up very soon need to write a paper thing which is why I'm spending too much time on the internet. C'mon adrenaline.
I think that sometimes when people have been telling themselves/the world a certain story for a long time (ie our life is crazy/ we are in survival mode) it becomes part of their identity and it can be hard to change it. It's like there is comfort in sticking with the familiar. Even if the familiar was an uncomfortable existence.
DeleteI think that it can also be "comforting" to stick with that rhetoric even when you have emerged on the other side because the other side may not have come up all sunshine and rainbows. Often, I feel, people tell themselves it will all be perfect when xyz happens. Then when xyz happens and it is not perfect people decide to reframe their story by deciding they haven't arrived at xyz yet. For example, people might tell themselves "things will be better when the kids are older." In their mind someone might believe that when the kids are "older" everything will be great. SO when the kids get older and things are better, but not perfect, they decide that the kids aren't "older" enough. Therefore, they are still waiting for the kids to get "older" (ie they are still waiting for things to become perfect or whatever). I don't think this is a conscious process so much as an unconscious framing of things in ones head.
Not sure if this poorly worded reply makes sense to you...
OMG yes EXACTLY THIS: " think that it can also be "comforting" to stick with that rhetoric even when you have emerged on the other side because the other side may not have come up all sunshine and rainbows."
DeleteThis is basically the story of my life, but I've realized it and am working on it for the past few years(and I'm changing!) because if not now then when? But he just doesn't THINK about things that way. I don't get it, but he just DOESN'T. He tells me he just tries to get through each day. He doesn't think about the past or future or reflect on why things may be a certain way and how to make them better. He just...lives. He can acknowledge that things are "bad" or "good" or "easy" or "hard" but not much else. He does have emotions and is intelligent and can talk about things with nuance but doesn't apply that to his own life.
It seems sort of nice, actually,but I'm not made that way.
oh and haha to him keeping a gratitude journal or reading mommy blogs. I do send him links to particularly good articles about perspective and gratitude and prioritizing what is important (you know, the ones about ignoring the dishes to play with your child or reframing your thoughts from "ugh what a mess I have to clean up" to gratitude for having fun healthy kids and a nice house to mess up )
DeleteHmm. He is making different choices than you are. And I totally agree with Anon that he may be sticking to the rhetoric he knows. I know sometimes I have trouble sitting down and relaxing because it would interfere with my "beleaguered (?) mom/wife who does everything" narrative. The work doesn't really need to get done. But... are these choices actually making HIM unhappy, or are they just making YOU unhappy? It would be nice if he realized that him making you unhappy is a problem, but unfortunately it's not exactly the same problem as if these behaviors are making him unhappy. Or maybe I'm making no sense at all.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm glad things are getting a little better. <3
I agree with the earlier comment that people often hold onto narratives longer than they are actually true. The martyr parent with no time for herself (himself in this case) is a big one. I have seen time diaries where people have something like "go out with friends" or "get a manicure" and the person writes an editorial comment next to it that "this never happens!" Even though, clearly, it did. It's hard to get someone else to change his/her narrative so really all we can do is focus on making ourselves happy. Though I'm really glad as I read through this series that it seems things are starting to work. Anything worthwhile takes time...
ReplyDeleteGlad things are starting to sink in & that you are more hopeful! Positive direction!!
ReplyDeleteThis is such an interesting post. My husband is similarly not interested in reflection. He has point-blank told me that self-help is NOT something he wants to participate in and that if self-help becomes a fixture in our marriage he will see that as a sign that things are really bad between us. So basically any time I want to specifically talk about our marriage or how we might make it better or god forbid suggest we do a little exercise to better understand each other, it's like I'm putting a nail in the coffin of our relationship in his mind. It makes it REALLY hard to make any forward movement with him.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't have any advice to give. I think you've gotten some good insights with previous comments and I'm proud of you for doing this hard work right now. I really, really, REALLY hope it pays off. Keep us posted. ;)
My husband is kind of like this too. He has told me he doesn't think couples counseling will work, he said maybe when we were first married but now we're set in our ways. I find "talking about our marriage" to be a positive activity to bring us closer together, but he seems to feel it's unpleasant (and unnecessary).
DeleteThings are actually going very well for us right now, and I hope that lasts. But it's quite possible (likely?) this is going to be an issue in the future.
Glad to hear things are going a bit better. I was struck by what a previous poster said: are his choices making HIM unhappy? Because (and maybe this is not helpful): I could imagine reframing this as : my husband is AWESOME! He makes the kids homemade breakfasts every day! He does tons of DYI! He vacuums and folds clothes and puts toys away! A lot of couples have to negotiate endlessly about who does what, but he is always taking on his fair share without me even having to ask, freeing me up to do more of the things I care about. We are truly the perfect team.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm cutting &pasting my reply to Deborah here, too: Yes. Yes they are making him unhappy. The word "martyr" comes to mind, hence this comment "complaining because its tiring and he's "working all the time". If he enjoyed them, and did them in good spirits, I wouldn't give a flip how he spends his time.
DeleteMy husband does many of the same things yours does. He refuses to go to bed on time, and then when he "goes to bed" he's actually up late into the night surfing the internet. Then he complains that he is too tired to do anything (including have conversations with me). He often does chores out of compulsion rather than necessity, and is obnoxiously uninterruptable (i.e. acts stressed out and rude to me if I try to talk to him) when he's in the middle of a cleaning spree. For the sleep thing, I'm trying to let it go. I've also suggested that the screen time before bed may be contributing to the insomnia he complains about. Fundamentally though, if he's willing to be exhausted all the time, then I've decided that's his problem, even though it affects me as well. I'm also trying to let the chores thing go too, but when he's rude I actively call him out on it, and he's slowly started to improve. I don't expect this to ever go completely away.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes me sad is that I really do need the social support right now. Most of my good friends have moved away, and I feel pretty alienated by work much of the time (though I still like what I do, finding human connection at work with people who understand me is not something I expect). Truthfully, I think I would feel better about our situation if I had a better support network outside my marriage with say, friends. I don't think that's ever going to happen though, so perhaps I'm forever doomed to unhappiness? I don't know.
But in terms of my husband at least, we try to make some time for just each other each weekend (which sometimes goes horribly, sometimes great), and I try to let him make his own choices as long as they don't mess up my life too much, with the understanding that when I ask him to do something for me, he MUST make time for it by being flexible with his own (real and imagined) commitments, because I just cannot do many things myself at the moment.
thanks for the comment. sounds like your husband has some quirks in common with mine! I get what you are saying re: the social support. Yup. I think maybe I'm noticing more that he is unavailable to me because I don't have many good friends around, particularly at work, compared to the past.
DeleteI mostly do the same stuff. I've asked (and he agreed) to start spending some time together in the evenings at least a couple nights a week, otherwise he's left to his own devices. When I need him to take care of something, or do something with the kids, its an "ask" but not really. i expect it to happen, I refuse to take it back over. he's pretty good about taking care of things if I specifically say: I need you to handle this.
I think you are in a very very tough time. Residency sucks, and I honestly can't imagine doing it with a kid and house and dog and all that. We were dating, but had no other real responsibilities so he could focus on being my support when I needed it.